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	<title>Comments on: Graded Browser Support Update: Q4 2009</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/index.php/2009/10/16/gbs-update-2009q4/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/10/16/gbs-update-2009q4/</link>
	<description>The official blog of the YUI Project.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 05:06:47 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Graded Browser Support Update: Q1 2010 &#187; Yahoo! User Interface Blog (YUIBlog)</title>
		<link>http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/10/16/gbs-update-2009q4/comment-page-1/#comment-588297</link>
		<dc:creator>Graded Browser Support Update: Q1 2010 &#187; Yahoo! User Interface Blog (YUIBlog)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 00:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/?p=650#comment-588297</guid>
		<description>[...] update implements the guidance we provided in Q4 2009. That update generated significant discussion, and high-quality input from Opera is included in the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] update implements the guidance we provided in Q4 2009. That update generated significant discussion, and high-quality input from Opera is included in the [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: AlfonsoML</title>
		<link>http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/10/16/gbs-update-2009q4/comment-page-1/#comment-587738</link>
		<dc:creator>AlfonsoML</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 17:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/?p=650#comment-587738</guid>
		<description>@KTX10
You can see here an IE8 bug that happens only in Vista: https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=425465&amp;wa=wsignin1.0

It&#039;s not that hard to find also Firefox bugs that only happen in one OS but not the others (in fact it&#039;s easier thanks to bugzilla).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@KTX10<br />
You can see here an IE8 bug that happens only in Vista: <a href="https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=425465&#038;wa=wsignin1.0" rel="nofollow">https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=425465&#038;wa=wsignin1.0</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s not that hard to find also Firefox bugs that only happen in one OS but not the others (in fact it&#8217;s easier thanks to bugzilla).</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Matt Sweeney</title>
		<link>http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/10/16/gbs-update-2009q4/comment-page-1/#comment-587518</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Sweeney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 23:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/?p=650#comment-587518</guid>
		<description>Hi KTX10,

In the past, we have seen platform specific issues arise with both IE and Firefox.  With IE this is generally in the area of activeX/directX controls.  For Firefox the issues were generally rendering related.

As you mention, these browsers generally have the same bugs, but not always.  This is the rationale for requiring testing on multiple platforms.  

This assumption is worth challenging from time to time, and will be re-considered prior to the next quarterly update.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi KTX10,</p>
<p>In the past, we have seen platform specific issues arise with both IE and Firefox.  With IE this is generally in the area of activeX/directX controls.  For Firefox the issues were generally rendering related.</p>
<p>As you mention, these browsers generally have the same bugs, but not always.  This is the rationale for requiring testing on multiple platforms.  </p>
<p>This assumption is worth challenging from time to time, and will be re-considered prior to the next quarterly update.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: KTX10</title>
		<link>http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/10/16/gbs-update-2009q4/comment-page-1/#comment-587515</link>
		<dc:creator>KTX10</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:23:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/?p=650#comment-587515</guid>
		<description>I have a question for the creators of the browser matrix and to the other developers in this community.  I was in a conversation with Microsoft and they verified that the core rendering engine for IE8 and IE7 are the same for the different operating systems.  Also, you can install the same installation file of Firefox on multiple OSes and have the same rendering results.  This appears to also be supported by my company’s development team as they have also noticed that bugs in one OS usually are present in another with the same browser type (ex. IE8 on XP and Vista usually have the same bug).  Along with this the same fix usually works on the different OSes.  My question is, if there is no code that may have calls to applications that interact directly with the OS (ex. Java) would it suffice to test the browser in just one of the Operating Systems?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a question for the creators of the browser matrix and to the other developers in this community.  I was in a conversation with Microsoft and they verified that the core rendering engine for IE8 and IE7 are the same for the different operating systems.  Also, you can install the same installation file of Firefox on multiple OSes and have the same rendering results.  This appears to also be supported by my company’s development team as they have also noticed that bugs in one OS usually are present in another with the same browser type (ex. IE8 on XP and Vista usually have the same bug).  Along with this the same fix usually works on the different OSes.  My question is, if there is no code that may have calls to applications that interact directly with the OS (ex. Java) would it suffice to test the browser in just one of the Operating Systems?</p>
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		<title>By: Constantine</title>
		<link>http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/10/16/gbs-update-2009q4/comment-page-1/#comment-587348</link>
		<dc:creator>Constantine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/?p=650#comment-587348</guid>
		<description>Well, Yahoo Search Engine together with Bing/MSN have &lt;b&gt;less than 0.5%&lt;/b&gt; market share in Russia or Ukraine. While Opera has around 40%.

Indeed, USA should not be a global metric for Internet stats anymore. Sorry to say, but this country has stuck in legacy of Web 1.0 trash (just like South Korea with IE6, in linked example), and now its only slowing the global adoption of modern standards, browsers and practices.

on topic: Opera 10 is quite compliant browser, as are FF3.5+, Chrome 3+ or Safari 4+ . They have only a couple of minor inconsistencies between each other, which are not hard to track down and fix. And i hope IE9 will catch up with them, so all the major browsers will become interoperable ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Yahoo Search Engine together with Bing/MSN have <b>less than 0.5%</b> market share in Russia or Ukraine. While Opera has around 40%.</p>
<p>Indeed, USA should not be a global metric for Internet stats anymore. Sorry to say, but this country has stuck in legacy of Web 1.0 trash (just like South Korea with IE6, in linked example), and now its only slowing the global adoption of modern standards, browsers and practices.</p>
<p>on topic: Opera 10 is quite compliant browser, as are FF3.5+, Chrome 3+ or Safari 4+ . They have only a couple of minor inconsistencies between each other, which are not hard to track down and fix. And i hope IE9 will catch up with them, so all the major browsers will become interoperable ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Paul McKeown</title>
		<link>http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/10/16/gbs-update-2009q4/comment-page-1/#comment-586488</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul McKeown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/?p=650#comment-586488</guid>
		<description>Opera 10 is my browser of choice. It behaves well, supports a wide range of modern standards (without bothering with a few that have yet to achieve wide cross-browser support), supports a very wide range of platforms and devices that no other browser quite manages to, provides accessibility support that no other browser quite manages to either.  My particular favorite feature is its support for link rel, which I wish other browsers (pardon me SeaMonkey you do too) would out of the box too - it&#039;s just so useful to be able to page through a site (using &quot;prev&quot; or &quot;next&quot;), rather than click on navigation in the site.

I do use other browsers, Firefox, in particular, because of its range of extensions; sometimes Safari and Chrome, simply because their recent versions are so cool and beautiful. Of course I also use IE, because sometime you just have to, but it&#039;s just not so fun.

I look forward to the day that you drop IE 6 support (and actually IE 7 as well, as it is also a mangy cur).  Looking forward actually to IE 9 catching up in 2010 with where other browsers are in 2009!

I think it would be a mistake to drop Opera 10 - it is actually the main browser in some countries, particularly in Northern and Eastern Europe.  Even taking Europe overall it still accounts for about 5-10% of all browsing, by most measures.

Drop IE 6 before Opera 10 from the A list.  It is possible to provide progressive enhancement in a way that guarantees that IE 6 users have access without wasting resources giving them the full sunshine experience - that I think is fair.  Running major lumps of javascript on IE 6 must be a nightmare anyway, as it is sooooo slow.

Anyway, that&#039;s just my tuppenceworth.  I have a feeling that you will end up supporting both Chrome and Opera.  Chrome for the desktop, Opera for the SSD and for some European markets.  (I know you don&#039;t yet include SSD&#039;s in your supported platforms, but you know you will have to, the market is going that way.) 

Sorry for droning on so long ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Opera 10 is my browser of choice. It behaves well, supports a wide range of modern standards (without bothering with a few that have yet to achieve wide cross-browser support), supports a very wide range of platforms and devices that no other browser quite manages to, provides accessibility support that no other browser quite manages to either.  My particular favorite feature is its support for link rel, which I wish other browsers (pardon me SeaMonkey you do too) would out of the box too &#8211; it&#8217;s just so useful to be able to page through a site (using &#8220;prev&#8221; or &#8220;next&#8221;), rather than click on navigation in the site.</p>
<p>I do use other browsers, Firefox, in particular, because of its range of extensions; sometimes Safari and Chrome, simply because their recent versions are so cool and beautiful. Of course I also use IE, because sometime you just have to, but it&#8217;s just not so fun.</p>
<p>I look forward to the day that you drop IE 6 support (and actually IE 7 as well, as it is also a mangy cur).  Looking forward actually to IE 9 catching up in 2010 with where other browsers are in 2009!</p>
<p>I think it would be a mistake to drop Opera 10 &#8211; it is actually the main browser in some countries, particularly in Northern and Eastern Europe.  Even taking Europe overall it still accounts for about 5-10% of all browsing, by most measures.</p>
<p>Drop IE 6 before Opera 10 from the A list.  It is possible to provide progressive enhancement in a way that guarantees that IE 6 users have access without wasting resources giving them the full sunshine experience &#8211; that I think is fair.  Running major lumps of javascript on IE 6 must be a nightmare anyway, as it is sooooo slow.</p>
<p>Anyway, that&#8217;s just my tuppenceworth.  I have a feeling that you will end up supporting both Chrome and Opera.  Chrome for the desktop, Opera for the SSD and for some European markets.  (I know you don&#8217;t yet include SSD&#8217;s in your supported platforms, but you know you will have to, the market is going that way.) </p>
<p>Sorry for droning on so long ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: Michal Tatarynowicz</title>
		<link>http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/10/16/gbs-update-2009q4/comment-page-1/#comment-585584</link>
		<dc:creator>Michal Tatarynowicz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/?p=650#comment-585584</guid>
		<description>I know this is like Emacs vs. vi, but I really don&#039;t see the point of using Opera these days. The choice is really between Chrome (performance and security) and Firefox (extensibility).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know this is like Emacs vs. vi, but I really don&#8217;t see the point of using Opera these days. The choice is really between Chrome (performance and security) and Firefox (extensibility).</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Eric Miraglia</title>
		<link>http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/10/16/gbs-update-2009q4/comment-page-1/#comment-585523</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Miraglia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 05:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/?p=650#comment-585523</guid>
		<description>Nicky,

We have every expectation that FF 3.5 on 10.5 and 10.6 will perform similarly.  By testing on the latest the OS version, we providing implicit coverage of the browser on other Mac OS X versions.  

The idea here is to support all capable browsers by testing the right cross-section of capable browsers.  A site that&#039;s been tested against this A-Grade matrix is likely to do very well with the best X-Grade browsers, including FF 3.5.x on 10.5.

-Eric</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicky,</p>
<p>We have every expectation that FF 3.5 on 10.5 and 10.6 will perform similarly.  By testing on the latest the OS version, we providing implicit coverage of the browser on other Mac OS X versions.  </p>
<p>The idea here is to support all capable browsers by testing the right cross-section of capable browsers.  A site that&#8217;s been tested against this A-Grade matrix is likely to do very well with the best X-Grade browsers, including FF 3.5.x on 10.5.</p>
<p>-Eric</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Matt Sweeney</title>
		<link>http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/10/16/gbs-update-2009q4/comment-page-1/#comment-585515</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Sweeney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/?p=650#comment-585515</guid>
		<description>Hi Peter,

We include all of our unit tests with each YUI release.  Additionally we regression test all of the examples we have on the site against the A-grade matrix.

We are working on automating these, however keep in mind that while the YUI team is the owner and caretaker for this list,  it is the baseline matrix for Yahoo! as a whole.  As with other  sites, depending on specific traffic, available QA resources, and other business concerns, various Y! properties may have more or less strict testing requirements.  For example, even though its considered X-grade, we have been testing Chrome against most of our core components for the past couple of release cycles.  Ditto for Opera 10 beta.

Unit tests are fairly easy to automate against a wide range of browsers, however deep functional testing against a site or &quot;application&quot; requires manual QA cycles, which need to be allocated as strategically as possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Peter,</p>
<p>We include all of our unit tests with each YUI release.  Additionally we regression test all of the examples we have on the site against the A-grade matrix.</p>
<p>We are working on automating these, however keep in mind that while the YUI team is the owner and caretaker for this list,  it is the baseline matrix for Yahoo! as a whole.  As with other  sites, depending on specific traffic, available QA resources, and other business concerns, various Y! properties may have more or less strict testing requirements.  For example, even though its considered X-grade, we have been testing Chrome against most of our core components for the past couple of release cycles.  Ditto for Opera 10 beta.</p>
<p>Unit tests are fairly easy to automate against a wide range of browsers, however deep functional testing against a site or &#8220;application&#8221; requires manual QA cycles, which need to be allocated as strategically as possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicky Peeters</title>
		<link>http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/10/16/gbs-update-2009q4/comment-page-1/#comment-585510</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicky Peeters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/?p=650#comment-585510</guid>
		<description>I am curious as why Firefox 3.5 is dropped on Mac OS X 10.5 if you&#039;re planning to support Safari 4? 

Seems to me that 10.5 isn&#039;t going to drop of the radar just because of Snow Leopard.
Snow Leopard is after all Intel-only, and as such I feel that there will be a lot of people running PPC Mac&#039;s using Firefox 3.5 that simply can&#039;t switch to 10.6.

Is there any data that decision is based on?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am curious as why Firefox 3.5 is dropped on Mac OS X 10.5 if you&#8217;re planning to support Safari 4? </p>
<p>Seems to me that 10.5 isn&#8217;t going to drop of the radar just because of Snow Leopard.<br />
Snow Leopard is after all Intel-only, and as such I feel that there will be a lot of people running PPC Mac&#8217;s using Firefox 3.5 that simply can&#8217;t switch to 10.6.</p>
<p>Is there any data that decision is based on?</p>
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